Willie
Member
Hi all. Just wondering what folks make of the 440 CT?
http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/20...etune-good-vibrations-from-natural-432hz.html
http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/20...etune-good-vibrations-from-natural-432hz.html
Different tunings do 'feel' different even to people who do not have perfect pitch - baroque music is generally played at A = 415 because it adds to the baroque 'feel'; similarly, the rock band Guns 'N Roses played most of their songs with half-step lower tuning (Slash, the widely emulated lead guitarist, still does this) to add a unique, slightly haunted 'feel' to their music.Apart from the fact that the assumed universality of 432 is out of thin air, the "historical facts" are wrong. The standard pitch has been changing for centuries. Try Wikipedia on Standard Pitch or Concert pitch. Almost every frequency has been used, but funny enough not 432 Hz. 440 was introduced way before mr Goebbels had anything to say at all. Adherents of this theory often claim that 432 Hz "feels" better than 440. If you would like to verify that a double blind test with a random frequency generator would be advisible, because the of the obvious placebo effect and the fact that only few people have perfect pitch.
If the extract in M Bornong's earlier post is correct:No, it makes absolutely no difference on the simple basis that the measure of hz is based on the second which is a manmade standard.
So, all the numerology theories are just junk.
First heard this idea here, not exactly a scientific source but its a pretty straightforward logical argument.
This may mean that there actually is a difference (between A = 440 and A = 432) when playing jazz and blues, as the 'blue' notes - certain notes that can sometimes be played a half to three-quarter tone lower, mimicking the natural scale - might lose that effect.
Different tunings do 'feel' different even to people who do not have perfect pitch - baroque music is generally played at A = 415 because it adds to the baroque 'feel'; similarly, the rock band Guns 'N Roses played most of their songs with half-step lower tuning (Slash, the widely emulated lead guitarist, still does this) to add a unique, slightly haunted 'feel' to their music.
The point is that blue notes, consonants, dissonants, tuning your instrument, are all RELATIVE pitches, not absolute frequencies. Georgie G pointed out that the frequency number we associate with a certain tone means how many vibration periods fit in 1 second. If we decided to define that second slightly different, the frequency number for the same tone would become different, but you would hear the same tone. So if there is something special about 432 Hz there must also be something special with the definition of the second. A perfect tuning has nothing to do with numbers, but with the ear.If the extract in M Bornong's earlier post is correct:
This may mean that there actually is a difference (between A = 440 and A = 432) when playing jazz and blues, as the 'blue' notes - certain notes that can sometimes be played a half to three-quarter tone lower, mimicking the natural scale - might lose that effect.
I did my own calculation on those numbers, and to my surprise I found quite a different outcome. Using the ratios minor second (16/15) major second (9/8) minor third (6/5) major third (5/4) perfect fourth (4/3) perfect fifth (3/2) minor sixth (8/5) major sixth (5/3) minor seventh (16/9) major seventh (30/16), middle c below a1= 440 Hz becomes 264 Hz, not 261.63 and middle c below 432 Hz becomes 259,2 Hz. e1 above 440 (a perfect 5th) becomes 660 Hz and above 432 648 Hz indeed. If the tone range consists of all possible intervals the 432 range has 7 whole number frequencies and two fractional (minor 3rd, minor 6th). The 440 range has 6 whole numbers and 3 fractions (4th, major 6th and minor 7th). Neither is "perfect". The (fraction) ratio used to get 261.63 Hz is arrived by using the equal temperament ratio's being used for piano's etc., but using that same ratio with 432 the middle c is a fraction as well (256.87)! This lazytechguy wasn't sufficiently informed on tuning I'm afraid.The biggest problem with this theory is that a majority of the major orchestras do not use A=440 hz as the standard concert pitch. Here is the most complete list I can find of the major orchestras and their concert pitch, http://members.aon.at/fnistl/index.html, you will find everything from 430 hz up to 444 hz used as concert pitch. Also, this is based on the western music tradition and the diatonic scale, not world wide as the opening of your article states, there are many traditions that have absolutely no standard pitch. For example, Indonesian Gamelan and much of South East Asia, use 2 scales, Slendro (5 tone scale) and Pelog (7 tone scale). There is no set interval with in the scale, the intervals are chosen by the gong maker, giving each Gamelan it's own unique sound. The same song played on 2 different Gamelans will sound quite different. http://balibeyond.com/gamelanscales.html.
There are a few mathematical advantages to using 432 as concert pitch:
http://lazytechguys.com/commentary/a-small-but-significant-controversy-in-music/
I wouldn't say that necessarily makes it "consistent with the universe".
I think that a specific tuning is a matter of personal taste and what one gets used to hearing, and that the style of music would have a far greater affect on behavior.
Erratum: 7 octaves should coïncide with 12 5 ths. Not 8. (2^7 = 128; 1.5^12 = 129.7..)Musical intervals show frequency ratio's of simple fractions. An octave (c1/c) has a ratio 2/1; a perfect 5th (g/c) 3/2; a perfect 4th (f/c) 4/3; a major 3rd (e/c) 5/4; a minor 3rd (eflat/c or f/d or c1/a) 6/5; a major 2nd (d/c) 9/8 [OR (e/d) 10/9!] a minor 2nd (e.g f/e or c1/b) 16/15 [OR (e.g. dflat/c or g/fsharp 25/24!]. Note that only prime numbers 1,2,3,5 are allowed. You can show for example that adding a 4th to a 5th results in an octave: 4/3 x 3/2 = 2/1; or that adding a minor 3rd to a major 3rd results in a perfect 5th: 6/5 x 5/4 = 3/2. In order to let adding two 2nd's result in a 3rd (c-d+d-e --> c-e) you need to use 10/9 x 9/8 = 5/4. Adding d-e and e-f gives 9/8 x 16/15 = 6/5 (a minor 3rd)
For instruments with large ranges (like piano's) there occurs a problem: 8 octaves should coincide with 12 5th's, but (3/2)^12 does not exactly equal (2/1)^8. Therefore the equal temperament tuning was invented, dividing an octave in 12 semitones, all with the same frequency ratio of the 12th root of 2, hence deliberately making all tones (exept the a) a tiny bit out of tune; e.g. the 5th is no longer perfect (1,5) but 1,4983.
No, it makes absolutely no difference on the simple basis that the measure of hz is based on the second which is a manmade standard.
I think that is exactly what Georgie G was trying to say. (Correct me if I'm wrong). This thread is about a kind of numerological preference for a certain frequency (432 Hz). That number however depends on the definition of the second. If the standard definition of a second was 1.85 % longer than it really is the same tone we now give a frequency of 432 Hz would have been 440 Hz. You wouldn't hear any difference.I don't think this is quite right. Certain frequencies will always be in the same relationship with each other, regardless of the measurement interval. That is, the tone we know as 880 hz will always be twice the one we know as 440 hz. As such, they will always sound harmonious, in that sounding the two frequencies together will not result in the generation of 'beat' tones. This is determined purely by the physics of waves and holds true irrespective of how such tones are measured or classified.
How were frequencies measured before electrical scopes?
The Exposing PseudoAstronomy podcast has just done an episode on this conspiracy, they have a little experiment at the end of the main segment where they play the two tones (432 & 440Mhz) and ask people to comment, I'd recommend doing commenting before listening to the follow on segment, where it's revealed just which order the tones are played in.
http://podcast.sjrdesign.net/shownotes_141.php
The biggest problem with this theory is that a majority of the major orchestras do not use A=440 hz as the standard concert pitch. Here is the most complete list I can find of the major orchestras and their concert pitch, http://members.aon.at/fnistl/index.html, you will find everything from 430 hz up to 444 hz used as concert pitch. Also, this is based on the western music tradition and the diatonic scale, not world wide as the opening of your article states, there are many traditions that have absolutely no standard pitch. For example, Indonesian Gamelan and much of South East Asia, use 2 scales, Slendro (5 tone scale) and Pelog (7 tone scale). There is no set interval with in the scale, the intervals are chosen by the gong maker, giving each Gamelan it's own unique sound. The same song played on 2 different Gamelans will sound quite different. http://balibeyond.com/gamelanscales.html.
There are a few mathematical advantages to using 432 as concert pitch:
http://lazytechguys.com/commentary/a-small-but-significant-controversy-in-music/
I wouldn't say that necessarily makes it "consistent with the universe".
I think that a specific tuning is a matter of personal taste and what one gets used to hearing, and that the style of music would have a far greater affect on behavior.
Can you explain what you mean by the relation between the fibonacci sequence and frequency responses?Thanks you have just prooved years of debate with a producer I know.
For the record we tune to 432hz because of fibonacci sequence and the relation to frequency responses. If you can't get that proper sound of the wailers, sly and robbie or steel pulse ensure you are actually tuned correctly. 440hz is a ISO standard that was protested hugely in France on it's proposal and hence the controversy on the topic.
[...]
I'm also interested in that French protest. Can you give me a source on that?Thanks you have just prooved years of debate with a producer I know.
For the record we tune to 432hz because of fibonacci sequence and the relation to frequency responses. If you can't get that proper sound of the wailers, sly and robbie or steel pulse ensure you are actually tuned correctly. 440hz is a ISO standard that was protested hugely in France on it's proposal and hence the controversy on the topic.
[...]
I'm also interested in that French protest. Can you give me a source on that?
For reference so I can picture the difference between 258.65 and 256 hz , what is the frequency difference between two semi-tones?
The wikipedia page does not say that the French government protested against 440 Hz in particular; singers protested against the pitch inflation in general, and the French government ordered the A1 to be 435 in 1859. 440 Hz was proposed in 1834 (and eventually became ISO standard in 1975), but in 1859 all different pitches up to 453 Hz were in use.May I add at the risk of being silenced by the moderator - the amount that the pitch was changed is by 1776% - to those who have been researching a while you may find that of interest. All the best
may truth prevail!
LION
Actually one should speak about frequency ratio instead of frequency difference. And that ratio depends on what kind of instrument you are playing. On a piano (with an equal temperament tuning) every semitone (minor second) interval has the same ratio, the 12th root of 2 (1,0595 approximately). So if you know one frequency, say a = 440 Hz, then a semitone higher (a sharp or b flat) has a frequency 1,0595x440 = 466,2. Etc. When you use the "perfect" (sometimes called Pythagorean) tuning, e.g. on a violin, there are two possibilities: the ratio is 16/15 when the semitone interval belongs to the scale you are playing in (e.g. e-f or b-c in the scale of c major) or 25/24 when the semitone interval is a chromatic increase or decrease.For reference so I can picture the difference between 258.65 and 256 hz , what is the frequency difference between two semi-tones?
Musical intervals show frequency ratio's of simple fractions. An octave (c1/c) has a ratio 2/1; a perfect 5th (g/c) 3/2; a perfect 4th (f/c) 4/3; a major 3rd (e/c) 5/4; a minor 3rd (eflat/c or f/d or c1/a) 6/5; a major 2nd (d/c) 9/8 [OR (e/d) 10/9!] a minor 2nd (e.g f/e or c1/b) 16/15 [OR (e.g. dflat/c or g/fsharp 25/24!]. Note that only prime numbers 1,2,3,5 are allowed. You can show for example that adding a 4th to a 5th results in an octave: 4/3 x 3/2 = 2/1; or that adding a minor 3rd to a major 3rd results in a perfect 5th: 6/5 x 5/4 = 3/2. In order to let adding two 2nd's result in a 3rd (c-d+d-e --> c-e) you need to use 10/9 x 9/8 = 5/4. Adding d-e and e-f gives 9/8 x 16/15 = 6/5 (a minor 3rd)
For instruments with large ranges (like piano's) there occurs a problem: 8 octaves should coincide with 12 5th's, but (3/2)^12 does not exactly equal (2/1)^8. Therefore the equal temperament tuning was invented, dividing an octave in 12 semitones, all with the same frequency ratio of the 12th root of 2, hence deliberately making all tones (exept the a) a tiny bit out of tune; e.g. the 5th is no longer perfect (1,5) but 1,4983.
I ran across this video that shows what Henk001 is explaining.
I don't see a edit button, While lying around one day, I thought about this post, and I got the key change wrong, A tuned down Guitar playing the motions of C will sound like it's playing in the key of "B", not "C#" as I stated in my post two above this. Apologies.
As a add on, to make this worth while, if you listen to "Diary of a Madman", by Ozzy, All the songs on that album are tuned down, except S.A.T.O., which is in E, or A440. So if you listen to the last three songs of that album, you will get a tuned "down" song, then a tuned "up" song, and then a tuned "down" song. If anybody wants to see if they can tell the difference.
Again, apologies for (unnecessary) second post.
Humbucker, single coil, lipstick, tapped, bug or active?I did semi-pick up